Partial movement in extended length?

[Justdoit]

I have been pracising extended length conditioning for a while. Here is a though on the topic.
For instance the hamstring force. The hamstring is already working when you do dead lift, and to some degree lunge or squat. It is not working in the stretching length or angle as it does in hamstring force. So may be the hamstring force should be done in only in the part of the angle where the other exercises can't reach.
I mean few inches from stretch, but not all the way down to the floor.
On the other hand may be there is some connection in the muscle memory to bring it all the way down.
I hope you guys understand what I mean.

[KLMBest]

Justdoit-

You know I always wondering about static contractions and their measure of strength increase. Maybe by actually moving the leg, ext. length does something different than static contraction. In any case, for me personally it works better than static contraction.
I do understand what you are saying, if you move past the extreme range into the normal range, than you can substitute with other exercises.
I may be totally wrong, but it seems to me like ext. length exercises are designed to isolate. In your example, the hamstring. If you do dead lift or one leg dead lift, the lower back goes into play. But a hamstring force is all hamstring.

[kungfu]

KLM, Just


You may be right about partial extended length when it comes to splits. But in terms of kicks, full range of movement is probably better. I would guess that to retract a kick, you need strength in exteme range and normal range together.
For split, side split especially you can mess around till, you find the exact distance that you need for maximum stretch after that.

[Kickball]

Hi guys,
I am new here.
I have read some posts and someone mentioned that you can do extended length conditioning before and after stretching. I have a mixed oppinion on that.
If the muscles is already tired and you stretch it, isn't there a chance to get injured?
I don't have the elasticsteel book, what I know about extended length conditionin is only from the newsletters. Specifically the leg circle I and II.
What does the book say?
I tried the leg circle I and than leg circle II. I used surgical bands.
It seems like the range of motion in my hip did increase by few inches.
But I would not hold a stretch after that and than do the circles again, cause I am afrait that may be too much.

P.S. leg cirle is classical pilates, and leg circle II (All-around hamstring force) seem to be Zaichik's adoption of the leg circle to the extended length training.

[Allstretch]

Hi guys,
I am new here.
I have read some posts and someone mentioned that you can do extended length conditioning before and after stretching. I have a mixed oppinion on that.
If the muscles is already tired and you stretch it, isn't there a chance to get injured?
I don't have the elasticsteel book, what I know about extended length conditionin is only from the newsletters. Specifically the leg circle I and II.
What does the book say?
I tried the leg circle I and than leg circle II. I used surgical bands.
It seems like the range of motion in my hip did increase by few inches.
But I would not hold a stretch after that and than do the circles again, cause I am afrait that may be too much.



P.S. leg cirle is classical pilates, and leg circle II (All-around hamstring force) seem to be Zaichik's adoption of the leg circle to the extended length training.

He said that it's Pilates exercise in the newsletter.
Similar idea to stability cirlces in kicking chapers.
The "force" exercies with the band, are pretty cool if keep under control.
otherwise the quad is pulling and the band is pulling- the hams will stretch
but don't let the stretch part get you too exited or you will find out a new meaning of the work sore.
Don't ask how I know. :?

[Trapper]

I am reading the thread as I am thinking about some comments in the book.
If the extended length conditioning was for the splits only, than patial movement may make sense, (or it may not.)
But this exercise also helps with kicks. This exercises and stability circles alone, have increased the height, speed and control of my round house and side kick.
I think that making the exercises partial can be a mistake, when it comes to kicks. You need an active contraction, from begining to the end of the kick. Not just at the most stretchible point.
I like it when the exercises make you think. LOL

[Justdoit]

Thank you for your replies :D

[Zand]

Hi Everyone,

I am nw to the ES method, and just ordered the book yet to be erecieved...I imagine a lot of this stuff is in the book but anyway......

I have a reaonsbale understanding of muscle neurophysiology. It should be noted that the strength that a muscle gains during resistance training is very specific to the joint range of motion that it is trained in. ie if you train you hamstring in say a 90 degree flexion range of motion then this is where they wil become strong. However, they may not gain any signifcant improve in strength in the end range of motion, say up to 160 degrees ROM in full splits.

It should also be noted that muscles are strengthen in a specific posture in whcih they are trained....ie if you train you hamstring in a deadlift posture, then they will be strengthen in this posture, there may be some cross over training effect to alternate postures, but maybe not that much....So when you do the splits you are trauining your hamstring and hip flexors mainly to contaact in their end ROM in that specific posture... However kick is a in diffenerent position so diffent muscles are used. Remeber that hamstring are not your prime movers in kicking they are actually the antagonistic muscle to the one that is used to generate the force that wil be directed towards your oponent.

The distinction should also be made between closed kiinetic chain exercise and open kinetic chain exercise. Closed kinetic chain exercis eis one in which the end point of the limb (ie the foot in this case) is held fixed in space (ie the standing leg). Open kinetic chain exercis is one in which the peripheral segment of the limb is freely moving in space (ie the kicking leg)..

It is therfore essential for maximum sport specific training that you train the main prime movers (ie main muscles that are used to generate force) and the antagonistic muscles (the ones that are used to counter the force generated by prime movers) as well as the stablising muscle of the body (ie the ones that are used to hold the position of the body) in a function posture (ie a kicking stance).

Back to the original question. COntracton of the muscles in the slplits through the full range of motion will give duiffent resulkt and strengthen diffenrt muscles than that of what you would gain from just doing dead lift and lunges etc.

Also Train the muscles in the specific ROM that you wish to use them...ie if you want to be able to do high kicks to the head....you must train in this position... ie standing one one leg, doing the exercise of kicking to the head but add resistance.

Holding the position of the leg high will strengthen all the muscles necessary to stabalise the skeleton in order for the prime mover muscles to operta emore effectively. So there is good argument for just standing one one leg, with kicking leg held high towards the head and performing the kicking action very slowly. This will train the slow twitch muscles that are necessary to stablise the standing leg, pelvis, lower spine. Also train ballistic to devlop fast twitch fibers.

Always a range of exercise should be perrformed in a variety of functional positions, at a number of diffeerbnt speed with different resitance for diiferent results.....

The point being that strength and flexibility training is very specific. If you train one way you will get good at doing it one way but this may not cross over to being functional in your sporst specifc motion.

To get maximu sport specific effects use strength and flexibility taining in a number of different position to gain maximu strenegth and force to muscle groups but you also must consolidate the gains acheived back into the exercise that you are training for.

I hope some if this makes sense and gets you thinking a little.

Let me know your thoughts on this

Best wishes

Train hard

Z

[Zand]

Also,
remeber the concept of the stretch reflex. Contracting a muscle isometrically before a strech will cause a reflex relaxation if the muscle so you will be able to move deeper in the stretch. Therfore contract the hamst and hip flexors before moving deeper in to strech...I am sure this is Covered in the book though....

Z

[kungfu]

Also,
remeber the concept of the stretch reflex. Contracting a muscle isometrically before a strech will cause a reflex relaxation if the muscle so you will be able to move deeper in the stretch. Therfore contract the hamst and hip flexors before moving deeper in to strech...I am sure this is Covered in the book though....

Z

Hi Zand,
this is one of the longest and most informative posts ever lol

In my oppinion Paul places allot of emphasis on the sequences of stretching. But the book does contain exercises for kick stabilitzation such as leg circle, and the reciprocal line stretches.
Honestly, I have a feeling that ES has allot of more exercises, which would be redundant to list all of them.
I say this because I know someone who attended his seminar a while back and many more exercises were taught than are in the book.

I do agree with you that most exercises are specific. However from my reading some exercises have some very surprising carry over effects.
For instance olympic runners squat heavy, and find it a great training tool, as much as running with a parachute and so on.

Great post Zand.

[resonator]

I have been playing around with ELC for a while. Lately I have been practing one set with full range and a few sets in only more stretches length. At this point I have both splits. My goal is to be on my back and "kiss" the toes of one leg, while my back is straight.
I found that there are two things that work.

One is to do really heavy resistance and than stretch right after, while the muscle is fatigued.
Tow is to do medium resistance wait a minute and than stretch.
So far my leg is missing about 30 degrees, which is much better than it was before. I think it's pretty good because my back is straight and all felxibility is from pure hamstring.

Cheers.

[JohnyK]

I have been playing around with ELC for a while. Lately I have been practing one set with full range and a few sets in only more stretches length. At this point I have both splits. My goal is to be on my back and "kiss" the toes of one leg, while my back is straight.
I found that there are two things that work.

One is to do really heavy resistance and than stretch right after, while the muscle is fatigued.
Tow is to do medium resistance wait a minute and than stretch.
So far my leg is missing about 30 degrees, which is much better than it was before. I think it's pretty good because my back is straight and all felxibility is from pure hamstring.

Cheers.


What you are describing is almost impossible flexibility. You right, it is all hamstring, because you can't cheat by bending your back.
30 away from 180? That's pretty good. How long have you worked on that?

[Florish]

Do you guys do passive light stretches or dynamic streches before that stretch?