elastic Steel vs Tom Kurz

[success]

What is the difference between the elastic steel program and Tom Kurz's program? When you see two sites with guys doing splits on chairs I need to know which one works and which doesn't and if they are basically the same at which point I am going to go where I can spend less money.

Those with experience with both and can clarify the differences, a reply would be appreciated. I am a guy with incredibly tight hamstrings and I am taking karate. Very hard to get my leg up even on a front kick. I have been doing research on stretching and the above came up along with Matt Furey.

Thanks!
Scott

[Allstretch]

Hi Scott,
before people begin to go crazy here.
This question been asked before many times, you will find it if you search.

[kungfu]

Try the hamstring exercises on the index page.
Also try the leg cirlces in previous articles.
See if that helps the hamstring.

[lazur]

I still don't have my ES package, but I'll tell what I know so far: Kurz comes off like an arrogant so and so. i uch prefer the fairly 'dry',(no attitude), presentation I've ssen on Zaichik's video clips at bodyweight culture. ES seems to offer a more comprehensive fitness approach, but that may not be an issue to you.

[Dave tkd]

Elastic steel is better by far! I have tom Kurtz video. It's ok but it's no Elastic steel though

[FreeAmerica]

A buddy mine takes TKD in NY. His master took Pauls seminar. He said good things about how it was organized and taught and the info that was presented.
I know Tom Kurz taught seminars too. I can't find any info about them.

[Dominic]

Hello,

I've been using ES (book and DVD) for two weeks and have made much more progress than I did with Kurtz's video and book. I train once a day in the evenings. I don't feel like I'm really stretching (no pain) but progress is being made.
I've also tried many other stretching systems including Synerstretch, Pavel's and Matt Furey's stuff. From my personal experience ES is in another league.
Previously I may have overtrained and possibly damaged muscles stretching. I used to force my legs into a stretch and hold it for an hour and be in immense pain the next day. Obviously I couldn't stretch the following few days and never made much progress. No pain with the ES system. The exercises and sequence of the exercises seem to be working.
It's early days but this is my experience so far.

[itf-tkd]

What is the difference between the elastic steel program and Tom Kurz's program? When you see two sites with guys doing splits on chairs I need to know which one works and which doesn't and if they are basically the same at which point I am going to go where I can spend less money.

Those with experience with both and can clarify the differences, a reply would be appreciated. I am a guy with incredibly tight hamstrings and I am taking karate. Very hard to get my leg up even on a front kick. I have been doing research on stretching and the above came up along with Matt Furey.

Thanks!
Scott

There's practcally no difference between them! They both follow a logical sequence of strength training and stretching. Kurz's book is far more detailed than Pauls book in that he explains the science behind it.

[Dave tkd]

Many people complain of hip pain when they follow the kurtz system. Having said that I'm sure many people have had great results with Kurtz also. Elasticsteel gets the desired results and I will stick with paul. If you look though the forum you will see so many people happy with a great system which sells it'self

[itf-tkd]

Many people complain of hip pain when they follow the kurtz system. Having said that I'm sure many people have had great results with Kurtz also. Elasticsteel gets the desired results and I will stick with paul. If you look though the forum you will see so many people happy with a great system which sells it'self

Tom Kurz address's the issues with alignment of the hip all through the book! As with many of the question and answers at the back of his book, it is clear that a lot of people don't follow the advice correctly! I personally can't see much difference between both books other that the types of excercises. They are both much the same! And both equally good. I just feel that Kurz explains his case better and provides reference for his findings.

[Dave tkd]

Well thats fair enough, Just realise though that Paul really does know his stuff. As does Kurtz I'm sure. All the people on here that I have spoken to have been more than satisfied with the elasticsteel system.

[kristian]

yes i think the main diference of tom and paul is that tom use much weight and paul more body and bands. but hey are on to the same thing. i think that many people wil damage theyr body if the just watch toms dvd. cause the book is much more detailed. pauls dvd is much more detailed. i have them all the books the dvds of them both . and still i am on here asking stuff hehe. and that tom can seem arogant thats no secret :)

[itf-tkd]

Well thats fair enough, Just realise though that Paul really does know his stuff. As does Kurtz I'm sure. All the people on here that I have spoken to have been more than satisfied with the elasticsteel system.

Dave,

I never suggested that for a second that Paul dosn't know his stuff. But it would be silly to suggest that Kurz dosn't either, with reference to the hip pain. His book has seen 4 editions in over 20 years. As for the arrogance thing, I agree, but he's generally like that with ill educated people who have preconceived ideas about things they know very little about.

[The Cougarkid]

i think kurz comes across as arrogant because of his no nonsense theory, his book and teachings come from a very methodical and theorical approach. his finding's and methods are based on proven studies and he's compiled all that knowledge into his own system of stretching. I find he's mostly a prick when someone clearly has no clue or hav misinterpreted his theories and then complain that they arn't working or even worse when people tell him something being done wrong or there just free loaders looking for the splits without buying his products.

Either way kurz has the testimonal to prove his theory and at the age of 5o somthing can still stand up from a deadsidesplit without touching a thing. and for all those who think that learning the splits is pointless after a certain age can enjoy knowing that kurz didn't learn till he was 23.

As for differences, they are very similar in the strengh approach. i like the variety of paul excercies in the elc section. and they hav come in useful. in terms of product, the kurz dvd is shorter and less informative than pauls but the reverve can be said for the books. so for maximum gains i'd say get kurz's book and combine pauls elc conditioning from the dvd, then add heavy dead lifts and squats.

my main difference is time, with kurz's stretching you can see fantastic gains with a few leg swings and isometric stretching at the end of ure usual workout 2 -4 times a week for like 20 mins a time. with elastic steel after you've pissed about massaging warming up doing elc getting ure green bands out and deep stretches uve literally done 9 hours of stretching. which to me is rubbish.

to some up, both the guys can do the splits and there both at the top of google lol, so they must be doing something right.

peace!!

[Daniel]

i think kurz comes across as arrogant because of his no nonsense theory, his book and teachings come from a very methodical and theorical approach. his finding's and methods are based on proven studies and he's compiled all that knowledge into his own system of stretching. I find he's mostly a prick when someone clearly has no clue or hav misinterpreted his theories and then complain that they arn't working or even worse when people tell him something being done wrong or there just free loaders looking for the splits without buying his products.

Either way kurz has the testimonal to prove his theory and at the age of 5o somthing can still stand up from a deadsidesplit without touching a thing. and for all those who think that learning the splits is pointless after a certain age can enjoy knowing that kurz didn't learn till he was 23.

As for differences, they are very similar in the strengh approach. i like the variety of paul excercies in the elc section. and they hav come in useful. in terms of product, the kurz dvd is shorter and less informative than pauls but the reverve can be said for the books. so for maximum gains i'd say get kurz's book and combine pauls elc conditioning from the dvd, then add heavy dead lifts and squats.

my main difference is time, with kurz's stretching you can see fantastic gains with a few leg swings and isometric stretching at the end of ure usual workout 2 -4 times a week for like 20 mins a time. with elastic steel after you've pissed about massaging warming up doing elc getting ure green bands out and deep stretches uve literally done 9 hours of stretching. which to me is rubbish.

to some up, both the guys can do the splits and there both at the top of google lol, so they must be doing something right.

peace!!

Hi! I didn't understand the part where you say "uve literally done 9 hours of stretching. which to me is rubbish." at the end.

No "vs" comes after "Paul Zaichik". It shouldn't be grammatically correct.
I've been stretching all my life, always feeling some pain no matter how little, here or there, feeling that something did not feel totally comfortable. But then I experimented ElasticSteel for 4 hours doing half of the exercises in the book, and not only I got farther than ever, but I did not feel any pain at all, my knees, hips, feet, back, cuads were totally relaxed and I felt a great stretching feeling where it should be instead of my joints and supporting muscles.
This is because Paul (my obeisances!!) takes care of all those body places BEFORE stretching. So, when you get to the stretch, you just simply STRETCH!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
What else can I say? I've almost purchased all of the DVDs and books He offers, and I was always more than satisfied with the material (and the UNBELIEVABLE results).
I don't think I need to tell you to get Paul's books and DVDs, right?

Happy spliting.

Daniel

[The Cougarkid]

9 hours was an over exagerated way of saying it takes to long. this is a personal preference simple. this was not a random harsh comment, i've done my research and purchased some of pauls products and kurz. it was a review for how i view them personally, to give the starter of this topic and the readers a veiwpoint to help them choose the best way to help there routines.

[matasorapit]

Cougarkitten, LOL (sorry, I could not help it!)

I (and some others here) have been involved with fight sports for a long- long time. I used Kurz method first in about 1990! It worked for a few months but never helped me split. I knew of PNF and Isometrics already so the concept was nothing new either. Tom said to many people they could not get splits because of not tilting the hips while the hips were in perfect form for many. That was my first argument. The second is the testimonials he has on his site. Many of them 20 years old or around abouts! Tom maybe a great teacher of stretching but success for many did not happen. Infact, I have never met a martial artist who have got splits through his techniques alone and I have met many fighters from around the world.
I do not want to take anything away from him but ES is working now for me. Long after I retired from the ring. Personally I do not appreciate you coming on this site stating an argument. I do not see how it helps you and I am sure Mr Kurz would think it is wrong also.

You have done your research? So have I!

Cougar kid needs to think like a cougar man. The world is full of obsitcals both in work and play. We must harness them as tests and treat every test as a learning curve. What works for you may not work for me. But it is finding what works for us that counts right.

Good luck mate.

Damian Matasorapit

-------------------
Just to add. Why is this topic even an interest. Why do people always need to focus on the bad. Everyone needs to be happy and have a hug!

[kristian]

if you read kurz book you will understand thats not on knowing isometric or not. its how you put your workout together. if you do that wrong his method will not work.like training deadlifts before your abs. that stupid to do. i think many people are to eager to get there that they mess up theyr body. i think strenght is the key . to litle strenght it will not work anyway.
so if this method or that method works. use what works for your body. we are not all the same. :)

[itf-tkd]

I used Kurz method first in about 1990! It worked for a few months but never helped me split

So the excercises worked for a few months then decided they just didn't like you anymore and decided to stop working? How can it work for a few months but not have helped??! I'm lost??

Tom said to many people they could not get splits because of not tilting the hips while the hips were in perfect form for many.

How do you know they were in perfect alignment? Did you examine them all??! I personally can get greater range in side splits (toes pointing forward) by tilting my pelvis. If I don't tilt it and rotate my thighs outward to some degree, then I don't abbduct as far, so he's 100% correct. Ask Paul, I'm sure he'll agree!!

Tom maybe a great teacher of stretching but success for many did not happen.

And everyone who has ever tried ES has, right? Get real!
Infact, I have never met a martial artist who have got splits through his techniques alone and I have met many fighters from around the world.
I managed front split within 3 months of following his (Kurz) method. I followed it to the letter. But then my training was rational, not scan the book then trying to do a split within a week attitude. I allowed for full recovery between workouts and did some fairly light static stretches during recovery periods. So I'm your first!
I do not appreciate you coming on this site stating an argument.
We were responding to a specific question in a post, I wasnt aware we weren't allowed to be truthful or objective.
You have done your research? So have I!.
That'll be why your excecises didn't like you no more, when they worked perfectly fine for a few months (oh but didn't help)!? Again this phase was explained by Kurz and how to remedy it when it occured!! I followed his advice, overcame this plateu phase and got there!

What works for you may not work for me. But it is finding what works for us that counts right..
Agreed. Again Kurz states this in his book.
Why is this topic even an interest.
Again, because the ligitimate question was asked by a poster!

Now lets have that cuddle? :-)

[Allstretch]

itf-tkd,

Kurz been around for 20 years or so. I been using his method for probably as long back. Did not work for me. ElasticSteel worked very well, although I was skeptical at first. Yes Kurz has "muscle cells" diagrams in his book. What I personally needed was a split, not a biology lecture.
In my humble oppinion, if you have ES book or DVD, you don't need Kurz book.
And don't get me started on Kurz was of training the sdie kick. Paul is a martial artist, Kurz is not. That's my two cents.

[itf-tkd]

itf-tkd,

Kurz been around for 20 years or so. I been using his method for probably as long back. Did not work for me. ElasticSteel worked very well, although I was skeptical at first. Yes Kurz has "muscle cells" diagrams in his book. What I personally needed was a split, not a biology lecture.
In my humble oppinion, if you have ES book or DVD, you don't need Kurz book.
And don't get me started on Kurz was of training the sdie kick. Paul is a martial artist, Kurz is not. That's my two cents.

I can't understand how two methods which are practically the same fails to work from one author to the next!!!!! Paul's method uses the same principles of strengthening the muscles first, as does Kurz. Paul's method
emphasises the importance of sequencing the workout (and that sequence is practically the same), as does Kurz. There's nothing in Paul's book, NOTHING!!!! that's not in Kurz's book only in more detail. Don't believe me, test me on it?!! so I take issue with your .. "if you have ES book or DVD, you don't need Kurz book." comment, as Kurz's book is far more detailed!! ... I have yet to buy Paul's dvd so can't and won't comment on it for now. I intend on buying it based on feedback from others on here who have said that the dvd is better than Kurz's dvd.

As for the biology lecture, the actual science of what goes on is at the end of the book, after all the excercises and stretching routines, so at least you get the choice if you want to read it or not. Personally I would like the choice. Kurz explains right from the first few pages that you don't need to know the ins and outs of what's going on, just that you follow the advice (to the letter) which I would have to say (in my humble opinion) most don't!! And personally I found it interesting and very informative. A choice not afforded in the ES book!

As for the martial arts thing, I believe Kurz has a martial arts background in Karate. However, that said, I still believe that Paul is technically better at kicking from the videos I have seen of him than Kurz. You won't get any argument from me on his side kick, I think Kurz's side kicks are technically really bad! .. I was pretty embarrassed after watching his stretching and kicking clinic dvd. But then I never bought the book or dvd to learn how to kick, I wanted flexibility after all!

[ChenZhen]

hey guys,

just for your information, i achieved the splits (front and side) using kurz' method and i'm a martial artist ;-)

i have pauls new kicking dvd series and i really like them, his kicks are amazing and so clean. i don't have his stretching books/dvds so i can't comment on those.

kurz is a martial artist and i think his kicks are nice too, i have his clinic on stretching and kicking dvd and IMO his kicks have lots of power.
i guess pauls acitve flexibility may be better so it's easier for him to control the kicks which makes them look cleaner.

what i don't like are kurz' side raises, i just can't see how they would benefit me more compared to paul's and pavel's version where the upper body is in the same alignment as in the actual kicks.

nevertheless i really like the simplicity of kurz' system, not too many different exercises.

why argue about all those systems, every method as good things for us to offer! i think bruce lee said something along the lines of take what's useful and disregard the rest. everyone's body is differrent and "there are many ways to skin a cat" ;-)

all the best

[The Cougarkid]

Cougarkitten, LOL (sorry, I could not help it!)

I (and some others here) have been involved with fight sports for a long- long time. I used Kurz method first in about 1990! It worked for a few months but never helped me split. I knew of PNF and Isometrics already so the concept was nothing new either. Tom said to many people they could not get splits because of not tilting the hips while the hips were in perfect form for many. That was my first argument. The second is the testimonials he has on his site. Many of them 20 years old or around abouts! Tom maybe a great teacher of stretching but success for many did not happen. Infact, I have never met a martial artist who have got splits through his techniques alone and I have met many fighters from around the world.
I do not want to take anything away from him but ES is working now for me. Long after I retired from the ring. Personally I do not appreciate you coming on this site stating an argument. I do not see how it helps you and I am sure Mr Kurz would think it is wrong also.

You have done your research? So have I!

Cougar kid needs to think like a cougar man. The world is full of obsitcals both in work and play. We must harness them as tests and treat every test as a learning curve. What works for you may not work for me. But it is finding what works for us that counts right.

Good luck mate.

Damian Matasorapit

-------------------
Just to add. Why is this topic even an interest. Why do people always need to focus on the bad. Everyone needs to be happy and have a hug!

Kurz's method relies simply on the very basic principle of progressive overload.
A common goal for any strength training program is to increase, or at least maintain the user's physical strength or muscle mass.

In order to achieve new results, as opposed to maintaining the current level of achievement, the muscles (ie skeletal muscles) need to be overloaded, which stimulates the natural adaptive processes of the human body, which develops to cope with the new demands placed on it. Conversely, decreased use of the muscle results in the loss of mass and strength, known as muscular atrophy. (see atrophy, and muscle atrophy.)

The fact is that the adaptive processes of the human body will only respond if continually called upon to exert a greater magnitude of force to meet higher physiological demands.

so basically what itf-tkd was saying was simple. kurz's method was fine and it worked for you.But then as all fitness practitioners realise and as is stated in the book you hit a plateau and thus could not increase your stretch. so what did you do????? you quit and looked for an easier option and discarded the method.

i personally started using the kurz method a year ago, i did a open side split between chairs in two months. and i'm not superman and i wudn't even say i used the method as good as i could have. ( i have the photo somewhere) i willl say this, i understand progressive overload, im a bodybuilder and a pro wrestler. i train hard i try to research and mostly try and give honest opinions on this forum to help other in there stretch quest to help them and gain help myself.

But you sir, well firstly you insulted my name which was given to me by my trainer a well respected veteran of pro wrestling. But then you insulted me by claiming that you are an authority over me because of your so called backround in fight sports??? who gives a s***. i have seen your photo's on the "splits photo's postings" thread and quite frankly its is clear to see why the kurz method never worked for you and why i suspect pauls wont either.

1) you are in no physical condition to do the strengh requirements needed to even start the basic stretching routine. there is no way you cud deadlift twice your bodyweight, squat 3 times your bodyweight and i doubt you cud even do 1 set of adductor raises x100 without any weight let alone the x30 rep wiv additional 10kg weight that kurz recommends.

2) you look frail,pale and skinny which i assume means that not only are your training methods poor but your diet is too. you will never increase strengh without proper nutrition. so there will come a time when even paul methods will stop working too. What you goin to do then???? quit the method and say that paul's methods are useless too?

But i will give you this. you hav obviously struck a nerve with me and quite frankly pi****d me off. so as someone with 0 martial arts backround and someone who just want to be able to do the splits. I think in six months we shud both post our splits photo's on this forum for all to see. you can continue using es and i'll use kurz. i wud like to say for a bit of friendly competition to give ourselves a goal. but quite frankly i just think ure a lazy bum scared of abit of sweat.

And your second point, the whole no ones used this method successfully in 20 years balony couldn't be more wrong either. watch this youtube post and tell me he didn't use kurz's method.

eRDoufkhJ8c

[davepleydell]

A lot of times it will depend on which person is doing the method. No doubt there are people on both sides which found it worked for them.

However not everyone is the same. For me I'll combine parts from any program if that is what it takes to acheive the goal.

I think Kurz lacked a lot of material early on. (90's) ie the strength video's etc came out later. When doing his methods back then I found I was sore and couldn't stretch again soon after. Hence progress was non existent. For those that didn't need the conditioning, no doubt they probably got good results. Later on the strength stuff came out but the book/dvd lacked that knowledge.

The ELC is a good because it's a complete solution. ie here is a complete program which you need to do x days with these possible variations. Plus some of the strength/stretch exercises are good because you don't need gym pully machines etc.

Both ideas are working off similar principles but they are just packaged in a different way. Some will suit others and some it won't. You just need to find what works for you.

And the other good thing is Paul is very helpful. Kurz is very abrupt. Plus I find this forum group also very good at helping and sharing ideas.

Those couple of things alone can make the the program far more worth while than any similar product where you are struggling along by yourself.

David

[matasorapit]

Cougar Kid,
I wish you all the best for your future.
I did not intend to use your name as a vindictive insult, it was meant to be funny.
I apologize that I have hurt your feelings.

kind regards

Damian Matasorapit

[Daniel]

What a shame Cougar Kid. That way of talking is not the way a civilized human being talks. Did you help anybody with that talk? Or your ego couldn't help it? I'm telling you this very seriously. You must have felt anger, anger alone let you write that way, it did not help you, not anybody else. I'm very dissapointed at how people behave nowadays; they'd be better off being animals.
But anyway, I know we are in times of quarrel and hipocrisy, these kinds of arguements are what we should expect of our friends and family and those who we do not know, you can see many people arguing and fighting over the slightest nonsensical thing, killing each other, attacking with words or physically, just because they want to have control of others, to be the one who "knows", to be the one to "win", the one to be "right", because they think just about them, "me", "me", "me", me", is what they think. This is not meant to judge anyone, judge by yourself, and the hardest: "judge yourself". I'm not waiting for an apology for the group, since these kind of messages offend the group, I'm probably expecting you fire back in anger, as anyone with a high false ego and out of control would do (almost any "human being" nowadays). If you can control yourself, your mind, you would be saying you are sorry. Your manliness will not be less if you say you are sorry for saying unpleasant things to one of our mates here on the forum. We are to help each other here.
Let's love each other, that way everything is possible, including splits :-)

[TKDSuccess]

Hey hey,

Only one place to post your Splits Pics and that's over on the thread I started. It's a great place full of encouragement from everyone there how wants to achieve the splits. With a little help we can all get there.

Having Fun,

James.

[ChenZhen]

lol, thats a video i made! xD

just did a new one today, going down is much faster now:

jTYaeekCrFc

[Lowellel]

I am very new to this plate forum.
solution of number of problems... Its my 1st experience to join any forum, so give me your valuable advises...
Whittier Gym (http://straightupfitness.com/whittier-gym/)

[Jimillenium]

Hi,

I'm late to the party again, I can see this thread was started some time ago!

I bought Tom Kurz's 'video' back in '94 or '95 and it was good. Obviously times have changed and these teachers have learned a lot more to teach us now.

The cost of the video then was probably about the same as Paul's DVD is now - so 16 years ago it was quite pricey to say the least. I bought it because of the hype 'how to kick from cold', and Tom only performed in about half of the video - his student did all of the exercises for strengthening.

I'm very pleased with all of the information in Paul's DVD, but I haven't seen the new content from Tom so cannot offer any insight into that.

There is a post in the 'Free articles for Instructors / Slow kicks an essential warm up' section where Paul has posted a comment at the end - "told him that I appreciate his honest response and I also appreciate his open mind."

Perhaps we should all take the same approach of keeping an open mind, and not refute either of Tom or Paul's teachings as being superior, but take information from both and make our own informed decision as to which methods to use - most likely bits of both.

[John Maddy]

Hey Scott., Welcome to this forum buddy!

[Muhammad]

the difference is that Paul did a lot of free tutorials but Kruz didnt do any one as i know